Friday, June 29, 2012

WHEN "CHRISTIANS" REJECT THE WORDS OF JESUS: A REMARKABLE DIALOGUE ON FACEBOOK

This interaction took place on the Facebook page for A Queer Thing Happened to America from about 2:00 AM until 4:30 AM, Tuesday morning, June 26, 2012. My posts here are identified as "MLB." Aside from removing an unrelated comment or two, as well as the comment of a colleague, this is the exact dialog as it unfolded. I post it here in its entirety, not to shame those I was reaching out to -- in fact, your hearts will break for them as you read -- but because it is one of the clearest examples of spiritual deception you will ever see. Take the time to read it through, and you will be amazed.

The original post was from a man named Nathan who said he would be watching what Facebook did carefully in terms of censoring pages that carried Christian perspectives about homosexuality. This is what followed. (One further note to the reader: I had interacted with Will many times before and he had actually been banned from all our other pages because of the nature of his posts, but I wanted to reach out to him again.)

Will: MANY of us are watching, Nathan .. like hawks. God is watching, as well.

MLB: Will, yes God is watching and reaching out to you, calling you to Himself and calling you to repentance and salvation and new life.

Will: Mike, if you talked with people instead of at them ... and if you honored Paul's words from Romans 14:1-4 ... God would, at least in part, be honored. ONLY you and satan would say what you just said. God and I know better.

Will: Fr. Martin Laird has reminded us that when satan, the prince of darkness, comes against us with his lying vanities as he did to Jesus in the wilderness .. the proper response is the truth of God's Word. He is our defender against every lying accusation from the pit of hell. Even against those things uttered by tongues whose entire agenda is self promotion and using God's beloved for financial gain. As I said earlier ... even more importantly than those of us who watch with vigilance .. God is watching, as well.

MLB: Will, how utterly, terribly tragic that you mistake God's offer of repentance, forgiveness, and new life for the voice of Satan! As for Paul's words, he was speaking about issues like observance of different holy days or eating of certain foods, not sexual sin. On this, he was 100% clear: 1 Cor 5:1-13. If you came here saying, "I want to follow and honor the Lord but I struggle terribly with same-sex attraction and can't see how God would consign me to a life of loneliness and celibacy," I and others would reach out to you and help you any way we knew how, crying with you and praying for you and encouraging you. But when you mock God's truth, falsely accuse me and others of all kinds of foul things, and then call the Father's voice the voice of Satan, you make it very difficult to help you. Nonetheless, I will pray for you, knowing that God can have mercy on us in the midst of our ignorance.

Will: Michael, I utterly reject the bastardized perversion of Christianity that is Fundamentalism ... and I live by faith according to the promises and faithfulness of Christ .. not any sort of Jewish Law that is based on the knowledge of good and evil. There is little sense in discussing anything with you .. so I will leave it, once again, at my original statement. GOD IS WATCHING, Michael. Be certain of it.

Will: You do NOT speak the word of God, Michael ... you speak "the knowledge of good and evil" which is the voice of satan that destroyed the union God intended with Adam in the first place. It is you, sir, that is confused and taking God's name in vain .. not me. You have nothing whatsoever with which to help me. Your relationship is with religious dogma, not with the Spirit of life in Christ, and it is very apparent. Now, let's not waste each other's time .... GOD IS WATCHING, Michael .. be certain of it.

MLB: Will, I base every word of what I wrote here on the God-breathed, life-giving truths of the New Testament. You can accuse all you like, but what you are shouting aloud is that you will reject and twist God's beautiful standards and holy Word based on your sexuality rather than submit to the liberating lordship of Jesus. As for me, I am blessed and thrilled and encouraged by the fact that God watches over me. My Father is wonderful beyond description, and what I do, I do out of love for Him.

Will: For my response ... see above.

MLB: Hear what the Spirit is saying to you, Will: "Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your heart" (Ps 95; Heb 3). I do hope there is still a place of repentance and salvation for you.

Will: For my response .. see above. I do not embrace the anti-Christ faith of fundamentalism or Jewish "knowledge of good and evil". GOD IS WATCHING .. be certain of it.

Will: Your faith is fundamentalism, mixed in with judaism, Michael. It is NOT Christianity. Now I am going to bed. I won't be drawn into your chaos or your arguments based on "the knowledge of good and evil". It is the faith of anti-Christ and I utterly reject it.

MLB: Will, the chaos is within your own soul. What you reject is Jesus the Christ. What you reject is the Holy Spirit. What you reject is the true faith. What you reject is the holy Word of a holy God. That is what and who you utterly reject, and there is no corner you can hide in that is out of His holy sight. I'll say it once more with urgency: Do not harden your heart any longer to the Spirit's voice.

Will: Michael you are truly foolish to be telling me what is in my heart. You don't know me, nor do you know anything about me. I realize that you are desperately trying to save face, and I understand that... but you really are looking very foo...
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Deanne Will is a beautiful person, he loves everyone...........who are you to judge him?

Will: Thank you Deanne ... I'm through wasting my time and energy here. This book and this whole "ministry" has the validity of a dead slug in the road. I don't know why I even bothered this much. Good to see you by the way!!

Deanne: You want to know what's "queer" in this country, Michael...people living on the streets because they have no where to go, and people living in million dollar mansions with twenty bathrooms. That's queer

MLB: Deanne, I am not judging him. I am offering him the gift of salvation and forgiveness and repentance through the blood of Jesus, who comes to save us from our sins (and homosexual practice is a sin for which Jesus died). Why reject God's grace? As for Will loving everyone, he has not shown that side to me yet. In any case, I didn't start the conversation here, Will did (I've never tried to post on his FB page or the like), so if he comes to criticize and attack, he will met here by love and truth. What's wrong with that? In fact, I don't have the time to interact with everyone who posts on our sites, but because Will has posted on many of my sites and pages, I decided to take the time to reach out to him again here with God's loving truth. Jesus said the truth will set us free!

MLB: Will, you are the only looking foolish and desperate, sad to say, and you forget that the vast majority of people who will see this interaction are followers of Jesus who embrace His Word rather than reject it, as you do. You keep claiming you are done here, only to post again and again, which really prompts me to pray for you all the more seriously. I will do that right now.

Deanne: Children going to bed hungry because they have no food. And children getting thrown a thousand dollar birthday party and crying because they didn't get the exact pony they wanted.....that's queer

MLB: Deanne, I used the word "Queer" because it's been mainstream and popular for years now. As for the materialism and greed of our culture, I agree with you! Please take a minute and read this: What Christian Orphans In India Can Teach Our American Youth. This is the kind of work the grads from my ministry school are involved with day and night around the world. This is the fruit of the gospel of Jesus that we preach, by His grace. Again, please take a minute to read this article.

Deanne: No, sorry. All I've ever seen in Mr. Will is love for everyone. All I see in you is judgement. I'm Roman Catholic, eleven years of Catechism, you see my picture. I believe with all my heart in God and Christ, and it would be my honor to hold Wills hand and walk through the gates with him.

Deanne: I'll pray for you

MLB: Deanne, Will's posts and comments were so ugly that he was banned from numerous sites of mine, sad to say. As for judgment, please show me where is any wrong judgment in a single comment I have made here, OK? As for walking through the gates with Will, that will only come through faith and repentance. It's not up to you to sit in judgment of God and tell Him what to do. He sets the standards, and He offers change: "Don't you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people-- none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God. Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." (1Co 6:9-11)

Also, did you take the time to read the article I linked?

Deanne: I see your rules. Guess you're the only one on earth who'll be seeing God. Say hi to Him for the rest of us.

MLB: Deanne, I quote God's Word to you and you see "my rules"? Do you not see what you are doing, Deanne? And did you completely miss the last verse? "Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." Jesus literally changes us! There is hope for the worst of sinners -- I was shooting heroin at 15 and lost in my sin before God saved me in 1971 -- and that means for you and me and Will. But we have to receive God's mercy, turn from our sins, with His help, and follow Him. There is no other way. That's why Jesus said, "Not everyone who calls out to me, 'Lord! Lord!' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter." (Mat 7:21)
Deanne: Who are you to speak for God?

MLB: Deanne, I'm quoting His words to you! You seem to be very happy to speak for him and to decide that you and Will are going to heaven (and I pray that you will enter His kingdom through repentance and faith in His Son Jesus), but when I quote Scripture to you, you reject it. Why do you reject God's Word?

Deanne: I'm sorry, I didn't realize you had his cell phone number.

Deanne Seems I heard somewhere that His Son said Love thy neighbor. Oh well.......who knows.

Deanne: And yes, I think Will and I will enter, because we love

MLB: Deanne, I have His Word. Do you accept that? And when I speak the truth to you and Will, I am practicing loving my neighbor. So, to be clear, do you reject the Bible as God's Word? More specifically, do you reject the words of Jesus and the words of Paul as God's Word? That's all I have shared here.

Deanne: Jesus and Paul preached love. Not judgement and hate.

Deanne: They were tortured because they were “queer."

MLB: Deanne, I'm quoting their words to you and yet you reject them. Why? I quote the words of Jesus and Paul and you call it judgment and hate. Can you honestly not understand that your problem is not with me but with Jesus and Paul?

Deanne: How do you know God and Christ and Paul, and what they said?

Deanne: Christ and Paul never spoke of homosexuality, they spoke of love

MLB: First, I have a wonderful personal relationship with the Lord. Second and more importantly, the words of the Father and Jesus and Paul are written for us in the Scriptures, and we can read them in the original Hebrew and Greek. What they said is quite clear if we're willing to listen.

MLB: Deanne, Paul explicitly wrote against homosexual practice in several of his letters, and Jesus made 100% clear that God's plan for human beings was male-female marriage. You are making things up out of your own head, Deanne. I'm sharing with you what they actually said. Love tells the truth.

MLB: I'm on EST, so it's 3:45 AM and I need to end this discussion for now. If you're really serious about this, take out the New Testament and start reading, OK?

Deanne: 1 Corinthians 13:13, and now these things remain. The greatest is love. Your site preaches intolerence and hate.

MLB: Deanne, I quoted from 1 Corinthians too, yet you call that intolerance and hate. The same Paul who wrote 1 Cor 6 wrote 1 Cor 13. Why do you accept some of his words and reject the others? And why do you sound so terribly intolerant and hateful yourself? I bring a message of the transforming love of God for all people -- the gospel! -- and yet you call it intolerance and hate. Your argument with is with Jesus, not with me. Again, though, I've got to end this discussion now, since it's past 4:00 AM.

Deanne: Will loves God also. And God loves him. Good night

MLB: Jesus said, "If you love me, obey my commandments. . . . Those who accept my commandments and obey them are the ones who love me. And because they love me, my Father will love them. And I will love them and reveal myself to each of them." (John 14:15, 21) We demonstrate our love for Jesus by obeying His commandments, and that means living a life of holiness to Him. I'm glad you care about Will -- I care about him too -- but preaching a false love will not help him or you. Love tells the truth. Good night to you.

Deanne: Holier than though doesn't make you holy

MLB: Deanne, I share Jesus' words with and you attack again with empty religious phrases. Please, Deanne, enough with your ad hominem attacks on the Lord and His words. You need to deal with Him, not me.

Deanne: I love Him, I believe in Him. He knows that.

Deanne: You're unimportant but your site is offensive, that's all

MLB: Deanne, it doesn't matter if I'm important or not. Jesus is important, and you have to wrestle with what He says. He is the one that offends you, not me.

Deanne: Actually, Christ and I get along quite well.

MLB: Then why do you reject His words when I post them? Why do you call them intolerance and hate?

Deanne: It seems to me that you're a sanctimonious a--. Sorry, but it is how you come off to me anyway.

MLB: Deanne, you sound incredibly judgmental and intolerant -- yet you claim to be so full of love? I quote Jesus' words to you and Paul's words to you, straight out of the Scriptures, and all you do is respond with venom. This is very revealing and very sad. Also, please watch your language if you want to post here.

Deanne: Sorry, its not like me. Sometimes my thumb works faster than my brain. :)

MLB: Forgiven! We've all typed too fast and posted too soon.


22 comments:

  1. Dr Brown, I don't need to tell you this as I find you are well acquainted with the various sects within Christianity, but Deanne appears to be trying to set Catholicism at odds with your teaching on homosexuality when in fact your teaching is identical to the Church. The 11 years of catechism is not apparent in her responses to you as she attempts to refute you with nothing but emotion. Yes God is love, but God does not love sin, a point which appears to have escaped her.

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  2. Leviticus 18:22
    Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

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  3. Michael, I just had a similar conversation on Facebook with a non-Christian guy I knew from high school and a woman I know from a church I previously attended. I posted your article about polyamory in Australia, he responded negatively, and she ended up defending HIM. I was shocked. However, thanks to your example of patient and loving sharing of the truth, it ended without vitriol, and she agreed to read your book, which I delivered to her later that day. Please pray for Suzanne and Mike.

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  4. Bless Deanne, Lord, with a hunger and thirst for righteousness and a hunger and thirst FOR YOUR WORD. I pray that she knows the Truth and the Truth makes her free.

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  5. The dialogue sounds like an exact replay of John 8:12-58 with Michael Brown as Jesus.

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  6. Nice article about the Indian orphans.

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  7. Wow. I've had conversations like this before, too. I don't really understand the mentality of arguing beyond reason, but I guess people do it all the time. I don't know how it brings satisfaction to argue a point that is clearly wrong. We must take God at His word... even if it doesn't make sense, and isn't convenient... His whole Word, and not just part. That is the only way we can know who Christ really is, and what He wants us to do.

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  8. I am just always amazed when people like Deanne come to the aid of someone by accusing the other person in the argument of being judgemental. Any person with any kind of rational mind will read this and see that Will is the person being judgemental in this debate. He not only questions MLB's motives, but his doctrine, his person, his understanding of scripture, and his standing with God. Even to the point of implying that MLB is speaking "for Satan". Who is really being judgemental??

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  9. I messaged Will on his facebook account regarding his statement "that there isn't a single verse in the bible that deals with homosexuality as we know it today" (in another facebook post). I asked Is there a difference between homosexuality as we know it today and the homosexuality addressed in scripture? I thought this might be an interesting topic. So far no response. If he does respond I will keep his answer private. Has anyone heard of this line of reasoning before?

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    1. Yes, it's a fairly standard argument that goes like this: What was prohibited in the Bible was a specific act, often looked as some kind of perversion, whereas there was no understanding that this was someone's "natural" sexual orientation, etc. Of course, it's a worthless argument in the end, but fairly standard.

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    2. Jaybea .. I would love to respond to your message, but I either didn't get it or I don't know where to look for it. thank you, and I will keep looking!!

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    3. This is Dr. John in Prince Albert. Remember him ? Will always treasure in my heart what your deposited here in the city. Regarding this conversation, the Scriptures correctly use the word "blind" to describe "Christians" that reject Jesus' words. It is called the Church in Laodicea in Rev 3:17.

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    4. Dr. John -- yes, of course, I remember! I'm sure Scott Volk, my colleague, remembers that trip as well. Just last week I was telling students at a ministry school in Pennsylvania about the amazing move of God that broke out at Red Earth Reserve after the time in Prince Albert. How are you and the school and the church? And was there lasting fruit from the holy outbreak at the reserve?

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    5. Jaybea .. Still waiting for that email or post that you sent to me ... I would LOVE to talk with you.

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  10. Not sure what's so remarkable about this conversation. This is quite typical diatribe from the mouths of those deceived & blinded by satan. For them, love isn't defined biblically ...it's defined by the 'this world' who has decided anything the Jesus or Paul judge or condemn NO ONE.

    If those in question altogether reject the scriptures, then they can't really be called 'Christians' ....

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    1. What is remarkable to me was the level of blindness and deception (the blatant rejecting of Jesus' words in his name!), plus the especially painful nature of interacting with people for whom you care but who are so lost.

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  11. Great dialogue and I enjoyed it immensely but it is quite sad. Dr. Brown you may have contradicted yourself though, you claimed you didn't judge Will but you did as you did Deanne. The judgments were accurate...:)...God bless

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  12. Brother your love for the lost and for the truth is Inspiring to me. Keep up the good work of the gospel

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  13. Dr Brown, God Bless you and keep you, protect you and provide for you. I have had to minister to gay men (only a few). Some accept, some don't, at least not right away. Some of them have been terribly abused and love is what they are grasping for. But they are confused about love and in some there is a spirit attached to it. It appears to be love but it is not. They don't know. Like any sin we go after and fall into it and like it. This one is difficult, but all things are possible with G-d. What a wonderful gift of truth you have given them through our Yeshua HaMashiach. It is very encouraging. Thank you and G-d bless you.

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  14. Looking this conversation over carefully . I am trying to see where I disagreed with Jesus' words or Paul (I don't worship Paul, by the way but I DID quote Paul for Mr. Brown, which he managed to attempt to twist). Someone show me where I even ONCE denied God's word in this conversation?

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  15. Will, here's an example of where you rejected Paul's words, which I cited. Since you asked for ONE, here you go. And I don't post this gleefully, Will, but with pain for your soul. (BTW, I did not "twist" Paul's words in Romans 14:1-4. I explained exactly what he was saying in context.)

    The relevant comments follow, below, where I cite 1 Cor 5:1-13 which you then reject as "bastardized Christianity."

    Will, how utterly, terribly tragic that you mistake God's offer of repentance, forgiveness, and new life for the voice of Satan! As for Paul's words, he was speaking about issues like observance of different holy days or eating of certain foods, not sexual sin. On this, he was 100% clear: 1 Cor 5:1-13. If you came here saying, "I want to follow and honor the Lord but I struggle terribly with same-sex attraction and can't see how God would consign me to a life of loneliness and celibacy," I and others would reach out to you and help you any way we knew how, crying with you and praying for you and encouraging you. But when you mock God's truth, falsely accuse me and others of all kinds of foul things, and then call the Father's voice the voice of Satan, you make it very difficult to help you. Nonetheless, I will pray for you, knowing that God can have mercy on us in the midst of our ignorance.

    Will: Michael, I utterly reject the bastardized perversion of Christianity that is Fundamentalism ... and I live by faith according to the promises and faithfulness of Christ .. not any sort of Jewish Law that is based on the knowledge of good and evil. There is little sense in discussing anything with you .. so I will leave it, once again, at my original statement. GOD IS WATCHING, Michael. Be certain of it.

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  16. Given these quotes from Will and Deane and what God's Word has to say, prayer is a priority here:

    Lord Jesus, Son of God, may your Holy Spirit bear down upon Will and Deanne, convict them of their errors, cause them to repent, and open their eyes to see you Jesus not only as the Savior from their sins, but also as Lord of their new life of obedience expressed from a regenerated soul in the power of your Spirit! Moreover, Lord, bring Will and Deanne to witness for your Kingdom to all of their friends of the wonderful, life-giving grace that they would then receive from believing in you and your truth. Amen.

    Will: Mike, if you talked with people instead of at them ... and if you honored Paul's words from Romans 14:1-4 ... God would, at least in part, be honored. ONLY you and satan would say what you just said. God and I know better.

    After MLB quotes 1Co 6:9-11:
    Deanne: I see your rules. Guess you're the only one on earth who'll be seeing God. Say hi to Him for the rest of us.

    Is 5:20 ESV Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

    Mt 12:31-37 ESV [Jesus said:] (31) Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. (32) And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. … (36) I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, (37) for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

    Ro 1:16-32 ESV For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. (17) For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith." (18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. … For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. (22) Claiming to be wise, they became fools, (23) and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. (24) Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, (25) because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. (26) For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; (27) and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. (28) And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. (29) They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, (30) slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, (31) foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. (32) Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

    May God have mercy and visit Will and Deanne with his transforming grace!

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